Deputy Editor Hannah Gadd talks to former member of Joy Division and New Order, Peter Hook, about his upcoming tour with The Light
Yesterday, I got the brilliant opportunity to talk to a former Joy Division and New Order member, Peter Hook. He claimed he was ‘watching the world go by in Soho’ when I called him to discuss his upcoming tour with The Light. We talked about AI lawsuits, the importance of live music for students and why New Order ignored Radio 1 for three years. Check it out:
Your tour is fast approaching, are you looking forward to returning on the road?
Now I’m free of the other members of New Order, I never really stop. I don’t do that ‘break, record, tour’ thing, I just play as and when I get asked. This summer we’ve done about twelve, maybe fourteen, festivals all over Europe. It’s just nice to be busy. Funnily enough, the tour is a completely different way of working. The festivals are on the weekend so you get a week off! (Laughs) Doing them one after another can be challenging but I am in very, very good company with the fans of New Order and Joy Division. They do their best to make sure that we have a good time as well as ourselves. As long as I’m careful and don’t burn the candle at both ends too much then it’s fine- it’s not a problem. When it is a problem I’ll tell you!
When we began, the Joy Division fans were a bit sniffy about New Order and the New Order fans were a bit sniffy about Joy Division so I’d like to think that we’ve managed to bring them together…
On this tour you’ll be playing the Substance LPs, what works so well about these tracks in a live environment?
Well, the two Substance LPs are completely different. New Order is a collection of hits that were pretty much successful all around the world. Joy Division’s has a much different, more intense, darker feel. Playing them together is quite a contrast. You have two sets of fans; you’ve got Joy Division fans and New Order fans- some of them crossover, some of them don’t. You have to be able to project and do them as well as possible so you keep the interest of both parties. It’s quite a weird thing actually. When we began, the Joy Division fans were a bit sniffy about New Order and the New Order fans were a bit sniffy about Joy Division so I’d like to think that we’ve managed to bring them together, they’re more crossed over now.
And both bands, Joy Division and New Order, have this generation-defying quality. What do you think it is that has fans coming back for more after all these years?
(Laughs) If I knew that, I’d be a very rich man in Nice sitting on a yacht! The thing is, in simple terms, it all comes down to songwriting. Joy Division is missed with Ian’s untimely death, added to the music… I think as future generations come across the music, it’s because of the quality of the songs. New Order songs are the same quality but it’s a different feel. By the time we got to 1980- it sounds like you weren’t there at that time (laughs)– the world got a bit brighter. New Order sort of tuned into that world whereas Joy Division was tuned into the seventies which was a darker time, a much more turbulent time in England. I suppose we were a product of each generation. You know what, I get so many wonderful compliments from kids coming up to me saying ‘my dad used to play Joy Division’, ‘my dad used to play New Order’, ‘I got into you at college’ and so on. Any compliment you can get, you will take. Us musicians are like sponges for compliments! Our egos are very fragile and we need them over and over again. It’s like when people say to you ‘Do you enjoy playing live? It looks a bit nerve wracking’, you’ll find that most musicians are addicted to playing live because it gives you- as my therapist says- a positive look on what you chose to do years ago. It gives you affirmation that you were right to follow what, in the seventies and eighties, was a difficult career choice.
Now, musicians can still be musicians while holding a full time job, whereas in our day, becoming a musician was all about getting rid of your full time job. It was a completely different way of working, a completely different attitude. We didn’t really know about business, we just knew how to turn up and play in a group but people looked after you because of the record-side of the business. Nowadays, most musicians have to be their own manager, they have to do their own marketing, they have to write the songs, produce the songs, record them, find somewhere to get them out; they’re much more savvy than we were. If that stops them from making the bloody mistakes that I made from a financial point of view, very bad decisions, then that’s got to be good! Without a doubt the whole point of being in a group, from a financial point, has changed. The satisfaction of being in control of your whole career and being able to put into it as much as you want, when you want, has to be nicer. Ours was like a runaway horse, you were forever trying to control it. It’s a completely different world but the truth is when it comes down to it, it’s all about songwriting. If you’re successful at songwriting then I think sooner or later you will get something from it.
You spoke a bit about how different the music space is now. Joy Division and New Order are still influencing bands to this day so I wonder how you feel about the current music scene?
I mean, judging from Spotify and thanks to the birth of AI, there’s more and more songs springing up every bloody year, every week, every day! It always makes me laugh because I was talking to the record company about AI and I think we’re actually suing some AI company for offering songs influenced by us without asking us. I said to him, ‘Well how many people put AI songs up on Spotify?’ and he said ‘At the moment there’s probably about four million songs on Spotify that have been created by AI’. So it’s like a harvesting machine, putting all these four million tracks up and Spotify puts them on a playlist even though they’re crap. AI hasn’t had a hit yet and I don’t think it ever bloody will to be honest. All these people are getting the same as me for every time their track is played, which is like 0.0013p, but when you’ve got four million of them going then that’s it. I’ve got about three or four hundred songs, so it’s quite a lucrative career. You know when you get those playlists on Spotify and you get a crap track, do you ever get those?
Yeah, some interesting things come up for sure!
(Laughs) Everytime I get one I go, ‘Is that AI?!’ It’s such a different world. I suppose it does come down to the thing of playing the music. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, the world’s pretty s**t at the moment! So when we get together, we’re celebrating a part of our lives where we only remember the good bits. I’m very lucky to have an audience and have people that believe in me and trust me to be able to come together, we play the music and we all go off to a much nicer place for two and half hours. Then of course we have to go back to the real world so I’m very lucky that those people believe in me and keep me out of the real world!
In fact the only time we thought about [Blue Monday] was when Radio 1 told us they wouldn’t play it because it was too long.
So in 1976, you learned bass and started a post-punk band. Did you think that six years later you’d have a synth-pop track like ‘Blue Monday’?
I didn’t expect it. The weird thing is we had quite an odd attitude as a group. Once we’d written a song, we more or less forgot about it until we came to do a set list for a gig. We just got on with the next song. The most important song, as our manager kept telling us, was the next one you’re gonna write, so get on with it! If you listen to the later work of Joy Division, you do hear a dance influence. You definitely hear a synthesiser influence because Barney built one from scratch and we used it live and in the studio. Our producer Martin Hannett brought along one of the first string synthesisers that we’d ever seen and we loved it. Bernard in particular loved the technology. I didn’t realise it was trying to get rid of us with it until much later! It was quite a natural progression. Our manager, who could always seem to find money to buy you the wildest brand new piece of gear, couldn’t find you money for the gas bill- but I suppose that’s what managers are for!
The most important song, as our manager kept telling us, was the next one you’re gonna write, so get on with it!
We were very lucky that Ian’s death gave Joy Division such a huge spur in popularity that we were able to afford equipment that we wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. It was quite ironic really, most of the synth bands of the period were, I think, very middle class because their parents had the money to buy these synthesisers. They were ridiculously expensive! A Prophet 5 in 1982 was £5000, that’s the equivalent now of about £25,000 and we had five of the buggers! They were so unreliable, if you used them live you had to buy lots of them. We were very lucky to have been given that opportunity thanks to Ian, God bless him, God rest his soul. But once we were finished with ‘Blue Monday’, we were off to the next one, didn’t even think about it! In fact the only time we thought about it was when Radio 1 told us they wouldn’t play it because it was too long. We told Radio 1 to get stuffed and we ignored them for two or three years. It was a huge hit and then the record company did a radio edit behind our backs and it became an even bigger hit. We were sort of peeved because it broke our punk ideals to give into Radio 1!
Joy Division actually played their last show at the University of Birmingham. Fifty years later, live music seems to be less present in student nightlife. Do you think this is a big loss?
Without those university social clubs we wouldn’t have had many places to play. We played them all over England. There was a subsidised policy where live music was viewed as an important part of student life. A lot of bands really did begin there so it was important. It’s very difficult in this day and age, I mean courses were free back then, it’s a much more commercialised world now. The social secretary at the one we played in Manchester was called Simon Moran, he put us on there and we did a cut price tour so he could start his own agency- our manager did it for him as a favour. He started SJM, so what’s he got in the bank now, £150 mil? It’s not only the music that it brings but it also educates people as well. It is a great loss but sadly because of the way the world and business has changed these things will happen. I don’t think it will be the end, we’ll keep our fingers crossed. I play some of them now, Peter Hook & The Light get to play some smaller, funky places.
Finally, what do you want people to take from this tour?
Not my guitars and equipment! Those days seem to have gone so that’s not too bad. We’re sharing a moment in time that we’ve been through together and for some people we’re giving them a moment in time that they’ve never had. Those kids that hear us and become part of a music scene, then it’s good isn’t it? They’ll be listening to a new period in New Order’s life and sadly Joy Division never get to do it, our last gig was in Birmingham- don’t I wish I could go back to that last gig oh my God. Now it’s learning about music and inspiration, it’s all about that!
Peter Hook & The Light play the O2 Institute on Friday 25th October 2024.
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